Clinton proposes to raise taxes on the rich. I saw her answer this to O'Reilly and his eyes about bugged out of his head as if he was thinking, "OMG my hard earned money being bled out by liberals."

Personally, I'm shocked the rich don't want to pay more in taxes. Can't they see how hard the middle class is struggling and with the flood of "immigrants' and the strain they are creating, how much longer can the working class survive? I seriously don't believe we are meant to survive it all. I'm beginning to feel that the rich are determined to destroy working class America!

Say it isn't so! Seriously, folks, how much money can you accumulate? People like O'Reilly have more then they can spend in a lifetime and will be leaving more to their children then they can spend in a lifetime and he is poor compared to the top of the crust!

I don't see the rich investing in anything that will help middle class and working Americans. In fact, I see them sending our jobs overseas and ushering in illegal immigrants and offering them free amnesty if they will just do the job cheaper then Americans will do it!

Tell me it isn't so! This is what I see. Rich people driving not 1 or 2 but 3 expensive top of the line cars while living in multi-billion dollar homes while middle class and working America are getting kicked out of their homes because the Banks are the new Loan Shark and now calling in the debts. Rich America just keep richer and the homeless crawl the streets while perfectly good homes go empty and fall apart.

I don't just think the rich should be taxed more, but quite frankly I think there needs to be a ceiling to how much you can stockpile before you are taxed 75% or more of your income. Just how rich do you need to be???

Look! There are limited resources in this Country. If just an elite few have them all then everyone else does without. What kind of society does that create? Look to Africa. Look to Mexico. Actually, they have it pretty good in Mexico considering how bad it is in other 3rd world countries.

Our infrastructure is falling apart and rich America just keeps schemeing and stealing us blind. How do they justify their indignation at a tax increase to redistribute some of that wealth? You can't take it with you! Your children are spoiled enough, but even so, no one would deny them continuing a lifestyle of privilege, but just HOW many millions/billions do you think you need to do that?

I would gladly settle for 3-4 million and shut my mouth. Anyone want to take me up? I'm serious! How much do you need?

you are always 'richer' than someone else. i don't see why YOU don't want to pay more in taxes, elberethe.

while i'm not poor (been there done that most of my life) i'm certainly not rich either. but i've worked hard to get where i am. i pay my fair share of taxes and then some. if i must pay even more taxes as a result of my continued hard work then guess what? my hard work is going to taper off. what's the point? why work hard to earn money that's just going to be taken away? ridiculous!

as far as the middle class goes.....it's shrinking because people are moving UP! also, i'm sick of this working class america BS. my wife and i both get up and drag our asses to WORK everyday and WORK hard at it. we ARE the WORKING class!!! the same goes for those "rich" people. most of them get up and go to work everyday. they weren't all born into the hilton family like paris.

your idea of a income ceiling is utterly foolish. you ask me to look to africa and mexico as examples of economic success? pulheeeeeeze!

TNG, hang to your pants, I TOTALLY agree with you.

elberethe:

Seriously, the people who are smart enough, and will work hard enough to make good money shouldn't be punished because others don't do the same. That's just ridiculous. If people want to spend lavishly, good for them, keeps the economy running. The very same rich people you speak of make generous contributions to charities, and very often do more than their part to help those in need. PLUS, many of those you speak of send their children to private schools, and still pay taxes, once again contributing to others. It isn't anyone's business how much the next guy makes, or how he spends it. After all, this is the land of opportunity isn't it?

How about just going to a flat tax? Simple, easy to figure out. Personal, business, doesn't matter. Maybe make the first $10k or $15k non-tax, then something like 10% or 12% on everything above that. Need to see what it would need to be to be revenue neutral.

We would save big time on the printing of forms, having tax lawyers and accountants. The IRS could be drastically reduced in size.
And the net effect would be more usesable money for the individual, business, and the government because there would be no need for all the accountants, etc.

Everyone is in favor of higher taxes as long as they think they won't have to pay them.

During Obama's victory speech last night in NC, I swear I heard him promise a "middle class tax cut." Hmmmmm, where have we heard that before?

But, in an earlier debate, when put in the corner, both candidates said they would only raise taxes on those making more than $200k per year. So, how does that make you feel? The middle class has just been defined as up to $200k per year.

I'm always amused when someone will claim that a tax cut will "cost" the government X number of dollars. Here's another way to look at it: a tax cut leaves X number of dollars in the private sector, which is a much more efficient economic engine than the notoriously inefficient government.

As always, those of you who think that taxes should be higher are free to pay more than what you are supposed to. And, those of you who sneer at the rich for making it, should never play the Lotto for fear that you might also be catapulted into the same group that you currently scorn.

so the guy making $199,999 is golden but the schlub who brings in $200k will take a hard hit and end up paying WAAAAAAAY more than the first guy.

percentages are always better than cutoff numbers. i am a proponent of both the flat tax and the fair tax. either would be infinitely better than the unfair tax we currently have.

fair tax

flat tax

The real problem is not how much or how little tax anyone pays but the problem is that we now collect enough tax to run everything if you cut our the waste! If they raised more taxes it would just feed the already broken system, period. It is that our government spends more than it brings in, why not do something simple. Don't spend what you don't have. And just do a flat tax. The solution is too simple! The lobbyists for the accounting professions would go ballistic on that!

How much money does one need? My sister saves every dime...she believes she can take it with her when she dies. She is not into helping others less fortunate- who work just as hard as she does-but make much less. I think most people with alot of money have big heads--and want to see just how much they can accumulate.

Rain99dog, the problem is, who decides how much money is enough? Is it OK if I decide how much money you should have?

I know, let's form a committee - a "blue ribbon commmission" - to set allowable income levels for all sorts of people. If those people make anything over their alloted income, it will be confiscated by the govmint and turned over to those less fortunate so that they can enjoy the standard of living that has been assigned to them.

Nothing will deflate our capitalist system faster than this socialist scheme. Why should I work harder - why should I work at all - if the govmint will give me what they think I deserve? Pretty soon, we'd end up like the USSR: the people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them.

TNG? Did you even read what I wrote or did you just assume you knew what I was saying? I want you to show me where I said or even IMPLIED that Mexico or Africa is an "example of economic success" pulheeeeeze! WTF are you going on about?

To the rest of you. I do not consider the ultra rich to be working class Americans. Given the figures some of you tossed around, I would not pay any taxes on a flat tax because I earn less then the taxable amount, but I do pay taxes and I pay at a higher rate then the ultra rich do. Why is that?

Talk of the middle class rising in class is insane. How can anyone even suggest that this is what is happening to the middle class (the true working class) when they are being laid off in droves as their jobs are shipped overseas? These are the same people who have to decide between gas in the car so they can get to work or health insurance.

Oh wait! You rank them (me) as the poor I guess. Us poor slobs who have been allocated to having our homes forclosed on because we don't deserve the middle class dream (for what reason, again, I'm not sure -- actually, I know the reason. It is so the rich can get richer!).

Those who can't afford health insurance, gas, and a mortgage deserve to live in the dredges of society because they aren't middle class or better and never were and never will be.

You talk of capitalism vs socialism as if Soviet Russia had a true socialism. They didn't. Communism is not socialism. I can honestly say that I believe the destruction of this country will be brought about by capitalism. While a socialist government can become communist as we saw in Russia, a capitalist government leads to greed, corruption, and a self-centeredness obsession that defies the ideals of Nationalism -- wow kinda like communism huh!!

Don't speak to me about how the ultra rich (and please I'm not talking about you 200k earners .. seriously, you call that rich?), give to the poor. Not one of you addressed the issues I brought up. I see these same ultra-rich only giving when it benefits them to do so (tax write-offs or needed shows of generosity for whatever personal reason).

These same people are the ones who are ushering in the NAU so they can have cheaper labor and be done with the Union pushing greedy American working class who cuts into their profits. (There is the rare exception to this although I would be hard pressed to point to anyone who truly gives because it is good for the Country).

This talk of there being no incentive to work is a red herring. People will still work to make more and have more then the Joneses. What ever happened to the days when the husband was the sole income and families lived MODESTLY on that income. Mothers actually raised their children instead of dumping them off on uncaring (and in many cases abusive) daycare centers while they bring in a 2nd income.

There will always be those who figure a 200k salary with 2 people working while the children raise themselves is better. I never suggested punishing them. The way I see it, they punish themselves.

Those with multi-millions (I did give O'Reilly as an example of the ultra rich who should be happy to give more didn't I?) should be happy to pay more taxes if they are so happy to contribute to charity. No wait! They won't get whatever benefit they get from giving to charity that way. Multi-millionaires the world over will quit and join the ranks of the poor inner-city poverty stricken because they will have nothing to work for anymore!! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I will agree that our Govt. isn't the best spender of these resources. I also see plenty of waste and corruption/greed in spending bills and worse in the agencies created to allocate those funds. Yet, it is the ultra-rich who fund the campaigns of their race horse. Greed. Corruption. You wonder why working class America rallies around an idiot like Obama when his only solution is "the audacity to hope" ...

Just My Opinion, do you seriously believe that those who aren't raking in the big bucks aren't doing so because they arent "smart enough" or willing to "work hard enough". What a charmed life you must be living. While you all hope I never strike the lottery, I can only hope you never suffer an illness, or disability, or job loss due to outsourcing or any other number of things that have been catapulting the middle class into the ranks of the poor!

Land of Opportunity? You seriously believe your good fortune can be chalked up to your taking advantage of opportunity and not recognize that a good amount of old fashioned luck played into it too? It would seem Gaff would disagree as he believes the only way to get into this "scorned" group is to win the lottery!

Gaff, I could give my entire income over to the Feds and it wouldn't even be a sliver of what a 25% cut of O'Reillys check would be. Do you seriously have no idea just how wide the gap is between working class and silver spoon bred and fed is?

You all sound like you are totally out of touch with reality to me and I must sound the same to you, so here is one more for your peace pipe. Smoke this one and then you will see just how crazy I must be: I blame capitalism for the influx of illegal aliens! This is exactly what is good for the capitalist society. Slave labor!

People like you who **BLINDLY** follow the capitalist mantra while decrying anything that sounds communist (socialism), have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a NAU. It just hasn't hit you yet like it has middle class (now poor by the 200k standard).

America doesn't invest in her working class anymore and that is why it is going to heck in a handbasket. As America becomes global, it doesn't need a working class. Will you laugh at these crazy rantings when you have enough money to jump the sinking ship or will you mourn all that has been lost when you go down with that ship?

quote:

Originally posted by jgaffney:
Rain99dog, the problem is, who decides how much money is enough? Is it OK if I decide how much money you should have?

I know, let's form a committee - a "blue ribbon commmission" - to set allowable income levels for all sorts of people. If those people make anything over their alloted income, it will be confiscated by the govmint and turned over to those less fortunate so that they can enjoy the standard of living that has been assigned to them.

I will sign up for that committee. I offer we start the ceiling at 2 million (only because I know you all will try to set it higher so I won't start with the higher amount I think it should be). Anyone valued at over 2 million would pay 75% on every penny over the 2 million mark. Spending down by investing in your community and charity is permitted! Keeping it is not. (Obviously, if you are running a multi-million dollar business your taxes would be different .. I'm talking about personal income here).

quote:

Nothing will deflate our capitalist system faster than this socialist scheme. Why should I work harder - why should I work at all - if the govmint will give me what they think I deserve? Pretty soon, we'd end up like the USSR: the people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them.

And deflating a capitalist system is bad because....... (fill in the blank).

1-because no one will work anymore - answered in prior post. Calling hogwash on that one. If there is money to be earned, people will work no matter what the system.

2-because they will pretend to work while the govt. pretends to pay them - They don't do this now? Seriously, how many struggling 2 income families really enjoy spending 40+ hours at work instead of at home and in leisure with their families? I know there are the rare few who have jobs they love just as there are the rare few who contribute freely and generously to charity. Let us talk about the average person/family here, please.

Most of working class America is on a threadmill. Running faster and faster trying to keep the electric light on and the gas guzzler fed.

3-We will wind up like the USSR. OMG! Is that the worse? Capitalism must be the answer because Communism sure wasn't. It has to be one or the other and there couldn't possibly be a better solution between the 2 extremes. I'm shocked in this era we still have people who fear USSR and communism this much that they would go to any extreme to distance themselves from it. Please, Gaff, do yourself a favor and read up on Socialism a bit more. It isn't the equivalent of Communism. Communism is a corruption of Socialism -- driven by greed and corruption to be exact. Gee! That sounds more like Capitalism then Socialism to me.

But what do I a poor (under 200k earnings), uneducated, lazy working class American know about such things?

Flat tax. But to be totally fair you would have to evict corporations from Prop 13 protections and revise it to make them pay fair share, and get rid of subsidies (corporate welfare) federally.

quote:

Originally posted by hanoverfist:
Flat tax. But to be totally fair you would have to evict corporations from Prop 13 protections and revise it to make them pay fair share, and get rid of subsidies (corporate welfare) federally.

Interesting point. I had always thought of prop 13 affecting home owners, but now that I check on it, it seems it covers all property taxes…Homeowners tend to sell or die sooner or later. I don’t know but I suspect there are relatively few homeowners still covered by prop 13. OTOH corporations don’t die do they? Will we someday get to the point where only corporations are covered by prop 13 in this state?

Since Prop 13 is just a CA thing I don’t think it is all that significant to a national flat tax however.

Fair tax? I read Boortz’ book a couple years ago and found it so full of loopholes and caveats that I guess I got rid of it as I no longer see it on my shelf. Maybe someone has improved upon the theory since then…

Flat tax? Sounds good, April is a black month on my calendar as I hate the paperwork. It sure would put a lot of accountant, CPAs, lawyers, bureaucrats and software folks out of business though. For that reason I think it fights a serious uphill battle. (I pick my fights) I also think that some tax breaks are worthy (I'm not talking about just mine either)…

If you only tax the "rich" (the top 1% of income earners are now paying 39% of ALL federal taxes) .. what happens when the rich take their money and leave? What happens when they pass away? I truly believe that EVERYONE should pay taxes. EVERYONE. Further, to drive the point home, I think EVERYONE should have to write a check, just like paying a bill, every month to the IRS for their taxes. THEN maybe people will wake up.

One more point .. who determines what is "rich"? It is not you now, but what if ...????


There is NO FREE RIDE.